Posts by Faithful Witness

31

My Elderette is attempting to change the subject again

by Faithful Witness in

we were in the middle of discussing their use of god's personal name, and miss k was not able to find one place in the bible, where jesus actually said the name out loud (that wasn't a quote from the ot).

we had started out by talking about jesus being "the way, the truth and the life.

" then she stated that one of the purposes of jesus' coming to earth, was "to make god's name known.

Faithful Witness

Along with many of the suggestions I have found here on JWN. I really appreciate all the insight. This forum is awesome!

31

My Elderette is attempting to change the subject again

by Faithful Witness in

we were in the middle of discussing their use of god's personal name, and miss k was not able to find one place in the bible, where jesus actually said the name out loud (that wasn't a quote from the ot).

we had started out by talking about jesus being "the way, the truth and the life.

" then she stated that one of the purposes of jesus' coming to earth, was "to make god's name known.

Faithful Witness

We were in the middle of discussing their use of God's personal name, and Miss K was not able to find one place in the Bible, where Jesus actually said the name out loud (that wasn't a quote from the OT).

We had started out by talking about Jesus being "the way, the truth and the life." Then she stated that one of the purposes of Jesus' coming to earth, was "to make God's name known." She showed me several verses to try to prove that, yet not one where it was recorded that he ever actually called him by a personal name. There was not one verse, where Jesus instructed them to call God by a personal name. If he had done that, maybe he could have told us how to pronounce it properly... ??

She admitted that they were mispronouncing it, but then went on to say that Jesus was a mispronunciation also... "So should we remove Jesus' name from the Bible also?" (I suggested we just throw the whole thing out the window, as she had used a similar reasoning to defend the NWT as the true translation, over the KJV... "Is that version of the Bible accurate???") It seems that her way of desperately trying to prove that what she says is true, is to deflect the question and question what someone else says. That is not very convincing (this time... been there already). "Question all religious teachings... look, they are false!" (but don't you dare question ours... we have the only TRUTH!)

Then we began reading the appendix to their new NWT, where it explains why they decided to add Jehovah to the Greek scriptures.

Some claims that she made last week:

Because of JW's, the churches of today are now aware of God's name. They are using it more, and apparently she has seen it up on the wall at one church. (She went for a wedding or funeral, and saw a mural with the different names for God).
Jesus is reigning on his heavenly throne NOW, but will eventually be giving the authority back to his father. (Therefore, we need to keep Jehovah above Jesus).
(the obvious and overused JW reasoning) If you want to know someone, you need to know their name! (Good grief, really? What will happen if I start calling my dad by his first name? Will I feel closer to him?)

We were interrupted by a phone call from my husband, that he was ready to be picked up from work.

She really wanted me to agree to use the Bible Teach book again. I told her I have already studied that whole book, but she thinks she can help me see it from a new perspective. I told her I would think about it, and was going to think about whether I was even going to continue studying with her. (I told her about a friend who had warned me about letting "heretics" into my home).

----- fast forward ----- I skipped a week, and my mom came for a visit instead. Miss K sent me a text, telling me she was "thinking of me." -----

I replied on Friday, and told her we could meet this week Friday. It took her a couple of days, but she just sent me a text yesterday (Tuesday). She is planning to come this week, and has suggested that we discuss Matthew 13:24-30 (the parable of the wheat and the weeds). Another leap!

Not sure what thought process has made her jump from the "fact" that Jesus told his disciples to make God's name known to every corner of the earth, to this particular parable. I have studied that WT article (July 15, 2013). I even attended that meeting with my husband, so we could see how people actually reacted when they were told that their beliefs had changed. Even though I am interested in this story, and how the JW's have interpreted it incorrectly (again), I am not really willing to move on to the next subject until we finish what we were just talking about.

I think she just wants to keep me guessing, and begin another round of her BIBLE RACE game. I'm on to that one, and I'm not going to waste 30 minutes hopping around between unrelated verses she has cherry-picked ahead of time. She begins each session with small talk, and then launches into her presentation. We go from verse to verse to verse, until she finally stops and asks me a question.

Since I never quite know what point she is driving at, it makes me look ignorant, and gives her an excuse to start the "Miss K Show," where she begins a long explanation of some topic of her choice. I've learned that I must interrupt this part, as her explanation is full of holes. We talk about those holes, and then she ends with, "Well, I just know this is the truth. I wouldn't be here, if I wasn't convinced of that."

This is a very poor demonstration of how you should "study" the Bible!

It has become apparent that this is her way of trying to "prove" that JW's get their beliefs from the bible.

Instead, she is revealing her method of "teaching" as a control and manipulation tactic.

She wants to appear as though her "knowledge" is superior to mine, because she has listed a bunch of verses on a piece of paper, and has now successfully made me follow her on her little adventure of skipping through the truth. NO MORE Bible races!

I am going to text her back, and let her know that I am willing to take another look at the Bible Teach book. At least I will know what she is planning to present next, and can be prepared with my own questions ahead of time.

I'm going to use some ideas from Wilbur Lingle's commentary. https://archive.org/details/ResponseToWhatDoesTheBibleReallyTeach

35

Don't You Think It's Odd That "Jehovah" Was Invented By A Catholic Monk?...

by minimus in

jw
friends

and that jehovah's witnesses are proud to use that name?.

Faithful Witness

Thank you for that explanation, Snare! I am not diving into a bunch of history, as I know my dear Miss K will not seriously consider any actual facts that I present about the name they use for God the Father.

She has been unable to show any record of where Jesus actually spoke the name out loud, yet so proudly claims that Jesus came to make God's name known. She is an intelligent woman, but there are such obvious gaps in her reasoning. She just "KNOWS" it is the truth, so she will keep defending it, even to the point of nonsense and false conclusions.

Her gaps in the truth, are starting to make a hole. Last time she was at my table, she asked me directly, "Have I come here and told you anything that wasn't true from the Bible?"

I gave her 3 examples, since each time she comes, she fails to prove her claims.

35

Don't You Think It's Odd That "Jehovah" Was Invented By A Catholic Monk?...

by minimus in

jw
friends

and that jehovah's witnesses are proud to use that name?.

Faithful Witness

I have not done my homework on the origin of the pronunciation "Jehovah." It never quite made sense to me, that they wanted to call the Father by his personal name. I always felt very weird using it.

I have never called my dad by his first name, even though I've always known it! I can only imagine his response... especially in light of the way he withdrew his affection, when I stopped my bible study. Now, he is love-bombing in his own sort of desperate and obvious way. I wonder what he would say, if I told him I wanted to get closer to him, and have decided to start calling him "Don."

My elderette is attempting another subject change this week, and I would like to finish our discussion we started last week, regarding the use of the name Jehovah. Who came up with that pronunciation? Where can I find reliable documentation of that fact? Thanks for starting this thread.

12

My JW Mom came for an impromptu visit yesterday. It went great! :)

by Faithful Witness in

it is so nice to start actually believing that my mom wants to have a relationship with me and my kids again.

there was awhile, where it was in question, and she wasn't sure if she was supposed to associate with us or not.

i think the stand that my sister has taken against me, is actually causing my mom to start doubting whether it is a good idea to follow this cruel example of "love" as defined by the watchtower.

Faithful Witness

It is so nice to start actually believing that my mom wants to have a relationship with me and my kids again. There was awhile, where it was in question, and she wasn't sure if she was supposed to associate with us or not. I think the stand that my sister has taken against me, is actually causing my mom to start doubting whether it is a good idea to follow this cruel example of "love" as defined by the Watchtower.

We got a new trampoline for the kids, and watched them jump on it and do tricks. My parents were the first in our town, back in 1977, to get a trampoline. I could tell that she was pleased by this choice, as she had seen the value of this investment for herself. (20 years, no injuries... no safety net, just safe rules and proper play). We enjoyed talking about memories from those days.

My mom asked me if the "Witnesses" have been back. I told her they had, and that I've had some very in depth discussions with them. I am pleased that my elderette, Miss K, is willing to address my concerns and questions. It is nice to have someone brave enough to stop and explain her beliefs. I told her, "She is very good, and I am learning a lot from her. I am learning how they..." (then I had to think how to phrase it nicely haha)

My mom said, "How they what...?" (at this time, she is doing a painting craft with my kids)

"How they use certain techniques to make their point, and try to present their claims as facts." (silence from Mom, as she listened... I still have to learn the best way to relay these conversations to my mom, and try to guage when I am supposed to stop talking.)

"For example, I am learning how the bible study will go, if we follow her plan. She doesn't start out with any opening statement or claim, or even tell me the point she is trying to make. Instead, we open our bibles and start having bible races, to see who can find verses she wants to read. She likes to show me 10-15 verses, located all throughout the bible. They don't always even seem related... like 2 weeks agp, she showed me about 15 verses that contained the word 'truth.' I kept waiting for her to get to the point. Then she will stop, and ask me a question I can't answer. She doesn't seem to follow a logical process to reach conclusions."

My mom is still just listening, and I don't know when to stop, and keep talking... (I see where I need to improve here, LOL) "So I asked her, 'What is the truth? I know JW's hold that word as if it were their greatest treasure.' Miss K quickly responded with, 'The Bible is the truth,' to which I replied, 'OK, what does the Bible say?' She just looked at me, so I asked her what was the message from the Bible. She said something about rectifying the Kingdom and vindictating Jehovah. I started to write it down, but she stopped me and said, 'You won't find that written down anywhere! Don't quote me on that!'"

My mom sort of clicked her tongue in disapproval. I said, "I noticed that she didn't mention Jesus at all, so I told her, 'Jesus is the truth! The truth, the way and the life...' The name above all names! Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

My mom said, "Yeah... and...?" as if that was what she believed and what the JW's taught.

So I said, "Why do Jehovah's Witnesses teach that you have to go through an organization to get to Jesus, when he told us to come to him directly? Why do they go through men to get to Christ?"

She said, "That is a good question..."

Then I talked to her about the name, and how I was asking Miss K why they insist on using the personal name of God, even to the point of inserting into the scriptures where it did not appear. I told her how Miss K said, it was only when they were quoting the OT, but that they also admitted that there were several other times, where they had come to the conclusion that it should have been there. I told her I had some real concerns, and that it seemed like they were twisting the scriptures.

"Why do they insist on calling God by his personal name, when Jesus Christ never said it?"

My mom said, "Right, Jesus called him Father." (!!!)

I told her how Miss K showed me some scriptures, where Jesus said he had come to make known his father's name, sanctify his name. I said, "But nowhere is it recorded, when Jesus told us to CALL God by his personal name. If it had been such an important instruction, then why isn't it recorded anywhere in the gospels?"

Mom said, "That's a good point..."

I said, "Jesus demonstrated how to pray, in the Lord's Prayer... 'Our Father, who art in heaven...' If anywhere he was going to tell us how to call on God, don't you think he would have said the name in that example prayer? Do you think he would have told us how to pronounce it?"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are so fixated on vindicating Jehovah's name... but Jesus didn't even call him that. What makes them think that they should be calling him that? If you go beyond what Jesus taught, then you are actually following the instructions of men. Are they following Christ's example, or the instructions of men?" My mom didn't say anything, but I think she got the piont. She looked confused.

Then I said, "Christians follow Christ. I asked her if they were 'Jehovah-ans.' I probably shouldn't have said that, because I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but after investigating the bible, and how they came to the conclusion that they should add Jehovah to the New Testament, it really didn't make sense."

"Miss K keeps asking me if she has come and taught me anything that WASN'T true from the Bible, yet she is asking me to believe and follow things that are not taught in the bible."

So, I gave her some things to ponder, and she is not running scared... She is actually considering coming back NEXT weekend already, and said that she might have Dad come with her. I'm not sure if this is something he asked her to arrange or what. She mentioned how he likes to do electrical projects, and sort of offered his handyman services to me. I told her we did have a couple of little things we needed help with, and it would be great to see Dad.

After the way my dad bear-hugged me a couple of weeks ago at my niece's recital, I think he is doing a love-bomb attempt. Even though my mom claims she "doesn't want to get involved," she has clearly passed along the message that I am doing a bible study again. I suspect that Dad wants to prove that JW's are helpful, thoughtful and loving.

It would be great to see my dad, and I do hope they will both come over next week! I will be glad to have a chance to talk with them both before the International Convention in Detroit. I might address one or two of the topics listed on the program, since they seem to have put their paranoia about Detroit city on the shelf for now.

13

Did I say too much, and scare away my elderette? What has happened to Miss K?

by Faithful Witness in

i have had 3 sessions of what is most likely being tracked as a "bible study" with an elderette who is from the kh we stopped attending about 3-4 years ago.. after last week's visit and bible verse study, she asked me if she should return.

i had expressed concerns that she was a heretic, and i had a friend who had warned me not to let her into my house.

i told her i had to think about whether i wanted to study the bible teach book with her.

Faithful Witness

DATA-DOG: I would rather be a kindergartener JW, than to have any kind of diploma or degree! Miss W threw me, when she said that, but I did consider the source. In order to be a full-fledged witness of Jehovah, you have to literally lose your mind. Hers has been gone for so long. I feel bad for her, and watching her struggle to justify her beliefs and behavior makes me sad and angry. (See my comment to dozy below for the context).

Luke 18:16-17 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little childrento come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

villagegirl: I have a Christian friend who is warning me not to let these women into my home. I told Miss K about my friend, and how I am unsure whether I should be listening to her interpretations of the scriptures, and showed her some scriptures that my friend had used to warn me about her.

This has actually been a great tool for me to use... "My friend said..." It has given me a little more leeway, in what kinds of comments I can make, when the opinion is coming from an outsider.

Of course, instead of answering the concern raised by my friend, Miss K will start attacking my friend. It is an interesting tactic, but I just tell her, "I'm not asking you what you think of my friend, but when she showed me this passage in the bible, it raised some concerns for me..."

It is interesting the way she jumped right onto, "Oh, and what church is your friend affiliated with?"

My friend and her husband are starting a discipleship program, and I am sort of her student. We also study the bible together, and I ask the questions from the JW's, and get good points or answers to give back to Miss K.

dozy: Miss K does deserve some props. She is good, and she DOES have a different approach (and she knows it). She has also acknowledged the fact that I am in a unique position. My family has joined, and I have studied before. "You know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. I think it's just a matter of your coming to the conclusion that we are teaching the truth. It doesn't sound like you are quite there yet." (this is where Miss W interjected with her comment, "That's because you are just a kindergartener. It will take you awhile to get to first grade, then second grade..." Miss W then went on to proudly proclaim her quick progress into the truth, and how she had wanted to be baptized after 3 months of study. This was in 1973.)

When Miss K says, "It seems like there are some flags being raised in your mind..." it is all I can do, to stop myself from shaking her and telling her to "WAKE UP! You are in a cult! Get out of her, you people! Can't you see the writing all over the Tower wall??" I really need a good response to this question.

When I mentioned this comment last week, Miss K gasped. "I did NOT call you a kindergartener!" and then later she made sure to compliment me on my intelligence. LOL. I do not claim higher intelligence, but I do have an analytical mind.

new hope: I hope Miss K is learning more than sales techniques from me. Maybe she will actually do some research, and find some facts that will cause her to start thinking also. If we start researching "together," who knows what she might learn? I sure am learning a lot about human behavior, and control techniques from her!

--------------------------------

Yesterday turned out to be the most glorious day! My JW mother texted me, and came for an impromptu visit with us. We did crafts, watched the kids on our new trampoline, played games and enjoyed each other's company. It was a great time, and the kids were so glad to have this nice day with Grandma.

My mom asked me if "the Witnesses" have been back, and I told her that I'm now considered a bible student. She seems pleased with this news, and is interested, when I tell her some of the things that Miss K is saying to me. I told her that Miss K and Miss W are very nice, and that it is interesting to hear some of the comments and statements that they make, and proceed to call it the "Truth." I'm going to start a different thread about my mom's visit.

Later in the evening, when I checked my phone, I saw that I had a text from Miss K after all. She had sent me a text, right about at the time of our usual appointment. I had told my mom that I was questioning whether I should continue letting them into the house, or just read the bible and follow the instructions from Jesus himself. I didn't understand why they had to go through an organization to get to Christ. My mom said, "That is a good question."

Since we are going on a trip in 2 weeks, I think I will agree to meet with Miss K next week Friday. If she is on the same schedule as my parents, she will be at the International Convention in Detroit the following weekend.

I can, but I don't need to put her off for a month. I think I'd also rather deal with her before the convention, then after she gets a huge recharge of her cult batteries.

13

Did I say too much, and scare away my elderette? What has happened to Miss K?

by Faithful Witness in

i have had 3 sessions of what is most likely being tracked as a "bible study" with an elderette who is from the kh we stopped attending about 3-4 years ago.. after last week's visit and bible verse study, she asked me if she should return.

i had expressed concerns that she was a heretic, and i had a friend who had warned me not to let her into my house.

i told her i had to think about whether i wanted to study the bible teach book with her.

Faithful Witness

I have had 3 sessions of what is most likely being tracked as a "Bible Study" with an elderette who is from the KH we stopped attending about 3-4 years ago.

After last week's visit and bible verse study, she asked me if she should return. I had expressed concerns that she was a heretic, and I had a friend who had warned me not to let her into my house. I told her I had to think about whether I wanted to study the Bible Teach book with her. She promised to get back to me in a few days, about whether we would have another appointment. We have been meeting on Fridays, so today would be our usual time. I have not heard from her yet.

I'm wondering if she returned to the KH and/or her elder husband, with my story of the end of our previous bible study. We studied with one of the head honcho elders (frequently read the Watchtower study article from the chair on stage) at the KH. Miss K's husband is also one of the main players (hall monitor) there.

Miss K keeps hinting, and sort of pressing me for what my real concerns are, regarding the JW's. She made the comment at least twice, about how "you seem to have some flags coming up in your mind, and I'm not sure what they are..."

I confided in her how saddened and shocked my husband and I were, when we tried asking questions of our teacher (after a revealing interview we found, featuring ex-JW's on an old TV show). His reaction to our sincere concerns, knocked us right off the JW wagon to "The Truth." I did start opening up to her, and my response included the unaddressed question, "Just because you are no longer a Jehovah's Witness, does that mean everything you say is a lie?"

I did not explain or tell her any of the information that we had. I did not ask her to defend any apostate information.

I'm wondering why she has not called or texted me yet. I am planning to tell her that we can resume after we get back from our vacation in a few weeks. Until then, I am going to focus my attention on my own home and family.

She told me, "It sounds like some trust has been violated. Maybe I can help you, or maybe I have some thoughts or comments that will help you see things from a fresh perspective." and "You are a woman of above-average intelligence. I enjoy the opportunity to defend the truth. (after I pointed out, that they had called me a "kindergartener" the week before)"

I told her I was appreciative to find a JW that was willing to answer my questions. "I am taking your advice. I have questions about the JW's, so I am asking a JW."

---------

What has happened to Miss K? Maybe she has had a busy week, and simply forgot to check in with me.

How likely is it, that she went back to her husband, and he told her not to call on me again?

21

Why does the new NWT not say outright that Jesus began to rule in 1914?

by yadda yadda 2 in

why???????.

http://www.jwstudies.com/2013_nwt__pages_1766__1767.jpg.

Faithful Witness

The Bible Words Index, at the back of the book lists:

Jesus - 1 reference

Jehovah - 11 references

Jehovah's Day - 1 reference (had to at least make it appear even)

Satan - 12 references

Name - 24 references

Salvation - 6 references

Sacrifice - 6 references

Work, worker, working - 12 references

Worship - 2 references

21

Why does the new NWT not say outright that Jesus began to rule in 1914?

by yadda yadda 2 in

why???????.

http://www.jwstudies.com/2013_nwt__pages_1766__1767.jpg.

Faithful Witness

This particular page is fascinating in their new bible. Like the CLIF notes version of the bible... and some colorful pictures for the kids to enjoy!

Also, the most evil and deceptive, in my opinion... (no wonder my elderette couldn't tell me what the message of the bible was)

The message of the Bible:

Jehovah has the right to rule. His method of ruling is best. His purpose for the earth and mankind will be fulfilled.

No mention of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

ProfCNJ: Likewise, why under "About 1914", the hurling of Satan was the one printed instead of "Jesus Christ began ruling as a King" or God's Kingdom ruling had began? Isn't God's Kingdom ruling in 1914 more significant than the throwing of Satan and his cohorts on earth?

That is exactly what I was wondering... Why so much emphasis on the power of Satan? Why ignore or under-emphasize their claims that Christ is ruling?

36

Question for active trolley publishers. Are you told not to approach anyone unless they approach you as part of your trolley training?

by KateWild in

if you actively do fs on a trolley i would love you to answer this question.

if you don't but know publishers that do can you ask them please.. are you told not to approach anyone unless they approach you as part of your trolley training?.

thanks kate xx.

Faithful Witness

Why no Bible?

What is the reasoning behind that rule?

I thought Jehovah's Witnesses based everything on the Bible...